"The Independent" (London)
April 11, 2002, Thursday

SECTION: FEATURES; Pg. 14
LENGTH: 710 words

GRADUATE CAREERS: HOW I GOT HERE
Interview By Sam Phillips

Richard Dawkins, 60, is an eminent evolutionist and has written several 
bestsellers, including his ground-breaking first book, The Selfish Gene. He 
is famous for his vigorous criticism of religion. He has held the Charles 
Simonyi Chair of Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University since 
1995.

EARLY EDUCATION

It was an accident that I ended up specialising in science in my last years 
at school. I slightly preferred science, and especially biology, and that 
guided me in my choice. I'm hugely thankful now that I made the right 
decision when I was 16. I now regard science as totally fascinating and I 
almost can't think of anybody who can retain any childish wonder and 
imagination without becoming riveted by science. THE BIG IDEA

I went to Oxford to read zoology. It was the system there that was 
important. The undergraduate student goes into a library for one week and 
reads the latest research literature on a subject and comes out at the end 
of that week a kind of world authority on that subject. Given a 
sufficiently narrow weekly topic, you really can read up all the latest 
stuff on it. It's an exhilarating experience for a young person. When you 
then discuss the subject with the tutor you have this feeling that somebody 
very knowledgeable is actually prepared to spend an hour of their time 
discussing your opinions and understanding. That experience was the making 
of me.

FIRST STEPS

In my third year at Oxford I realised that I very much wanted to carry on 
in academia and the next step was to start a DPhil.

I was supervised by a Dutch biologist called Niko Tinbergen. He was an 
inspiration. He smiled a lot and was a kindly, avuncular figure to me, 
always extremely enthusiastic and interested in his subject. I didn't do my 
doctoral thesis on evolution but I never lost my interest in evolution. I 
came back to it about 10 years later when I wrote The Selfish Gene.

BIG BREAK

The publication of The Selfish Gene in 1976 was the definite turning point 
of my career. It brought to a satisfactory close the research that I had 
been doing on mathematical models of animal behaviour and switched me for 
the rest of my career to evolution.

I would make a distinction between a writer who makes popular something 
that has already been established in scholarly literature and someone who 
is trying to make fresh contributions to the scholarly literature in a way 
that lay people can understand. I have always tried to do the second. Since 
1976 with The Selfish Gene, I have tried to make my contribution to 
scholarship largely in a language that can be readily understood. I want to 
change the way people think.

BEST ACHIEVEMENT

The next book I wrote after The Selfish Gene was called The Extended 
Phenotype, but that was a book for academic scholars and specialists. It's 
not a book for laymen, although some laymen have been kind enough to say 
they enjoyed it. It set out a theoretical world view that was a radical 
expansion of The Selfish Gene. The Extended Phenotype is what I regard as 
my most lasting achievement.

ON BEING AN ATHEIST

Atheism is always taken as a negative. I don't like being typecast in a 
negative way. I would much rather be typecast as someone who has a positive 
scientific view of the universe and who exalts in the opportunity we have 
to understand before we die. That perspective goes with the feeling that 
when we die, that's it. It goes with the feeling that this life is all 
there is and that we need to stand on our own two feet and not put our 
trust in phantoms. This includes putting scientific effort into the 
understanding of the environment in which we find ourselves.

TOP TIP

People should regard the science they study as an important part of a 
general liberal education, in the same way they might study history and 
English literature. One of the problems with science education is that it 
is equated with the practice of science. We need practising scientists, but 
this ignores the kind of person who could benefit and be fascinated by 
science without being a practising scientist. While it's important that 
some people learn to do science, we should all learn to appreciate science 
as part of our culture.

INTERVIEW BY SAM PHILLIPS

POWRÓT